It's one of the great conundrums of the motorcoach industry: Operators believe they should get financial incentives from their insurance companies for paying big bucks to install safety equipment on their buses.

But it seldom happens that way.

The fact is any motorcoach operator hoping to catch a break on its insurance rates by installing safety equipment has to be patient - very patient. The wait is usually measured in years, not months or weeks.

Operators can put fire suppression systems, backup video cameras, low-tire-pressure warning systems, electronic log books and a variety of other devices on their coaches, but they aren't likely to see any premium adjustments until they can actually show a reduction in losses, which usually takes a year or longer.

There are exceptions.

Those operators that have added DriveCam, the palm-size cameras that record highway action outside the bus and driver action inside, can expect to see some cash much sooner.

A number of insurance companies are reimbursing their clients part of the cost of purchasing and maintaining the equipment, some paying as much as $500 for each DriveCam unit installed in a motorcoach.

"We agreed to that product because it gives our claims department the picture that's worth 1,000 words to show true liability," said Michelle Silvestro, assistant vice president and spokeswoman for National Interstate Insurance.

Lancer Insurance Co. is equally bullish on DriveCam, but more because the cameras pick up on poor drivers and driving habits, providing operators information they can use to correct drivers, require retraining, or even fire them.

"DriveCam helps by weeding out the causes of claims -- bad drivers," said Randy O'Neill, senior vice president. "It gives instant feed back on how the vehicles are being driven and that vigilance translates into less claims and a more efficient driver force."

Lancer and National Interstate also are among the insurance companies that pay clients for having DriveCam on their motorcoaches.

The cameras, which are mini video recorders triggered by driver actions such as hard braking, accelerating or harsh cornering, capture everything the driver sees and hears seconds before, during and immediately after an accident or other road incident. At the same time, they record what the driver was doing just before the incident as well.

DriveCam maintains that the equipment not only results in safer driving, but lowers investigative expenses and speeds up claim settlements, which leads to more predictable losses and more accurate underwriting.

But for most of the insurance companies, the real value is in having an actual picture of what happened in an accident and who was at fault. "It specifically addresses my need to see the picture to be able to defend a claim," said Silvestro.

O'Neill values the pictures, too, but cautions that they can backfire. "They help, but they can also hurt," he suggested. "They can make a moderate claim into a severe claim because there might be evidence the driver did something that was inappropriate."

National Interstate doesn't give rate reductions or cash for other safety equipment because rates are based on a review of a motorcoach business in its entirety - driver profiles, vehicle condition and age, maintenance practices, safety programs, operating territory and losses - and not a single factor, according to Silvestro.

She said if a carrier adds safety equipment and its losses actually decline over time, then the reduced loss experience would be a factor in the company review. "And then it would be seen in their insurance rates," she adds.

Lancer, which operates in the same manner, doesn't allow rate reductions or payments simply for using safety equipment. Like most insurers, Lancer takes the position that motorcoach operators are expected to invest in equipment that strengthens their businesses and makes it safer, says O'Neill.

"I don't think you should get special credit for doing what a prudent operator should be doing to begin with," he adds. "We certainly are supportive of people doing those things, but I don't think that it is really going above and beyond."

Installing DriveCam, he emphasized, is going beyond the norm and results in a bonus for the people who use it.

He said Lancer is looking at other high-tech devices that could warrant similar payments, but no decisions have been made. Among them are devices that use a new, highly sophisticated black box technology. "We're talking with several vendors now and hope to decide soon," he added.

William Schoolman, president of Classic Coach in New York, said he can easily see why insurance companies favor DriveCam because he has the equipment on all 110 of his coaches, midsize buses, shuttles, trolleys, vans, limousines and company cars. He says it has cut his losses in half. He didn't get any money for installing the equipment, though, because he is self-insured.

He said the cameras twice saved him substantial losses by taping serious accidents that showed the driver was not at fault in either case. "I can't imagine being in the fleet business without using DriveCam and I would never put a vehicle on the road without it," he added.

Some operators believe that other safety equipment should warrant lower premiums or payments the same as DriveCam.

Among them is Peter Pan Bus Lines, which recently purchased 16 MCI J model coaches with fire suppression equipment. "Logic tells you that if someone makes an investment that protects a unit against fire there should be some kind of consideration for that," says Bob Schwarz, executive vice president. "I know our financial people have that under the microscope right now."

He said the equipment added nearly $10,000 to the cost of each of the new coaches.

Peter Pan plans to put the equipment in 50 of its existing coaches this year as well, and then try to build a loss reduction record that leads to lower insurance costs. "Our intention would be to take full advantage of that just as any good business or individual would do," he said.

Chances are, though, the company will have to wait awhile. The insurance companies want to see the long-term impact before they adjust their premiums.